Navigating Tax Law Changes for Growth

Mike Pine: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Hidden Money Podcast. Kevin and I are excited to be here. We've, kind of, taken a couple months off on recording these as we've been focused on serious, and lots of, tax planning strategies for the last month and a half of 2024.

It is currently December 19th, 2024, nearly a month before this podcast will be edited and released. There's a lot of cool stuff coming up in this new year. We want to address some of those things, but first of all, Kevin, it's funny to be back here. I talk to you every day, but we're on the podcast again. It's been a while.

Kevin Schneider: It has been, but it's been such a good past two months. I think we really leaned in this year. We have always had the passion for tax planning, but we really pushed this year.

We offered free consultations for all of our current clients, just having conversations with them, "How's your 2024 going? What's, what's coming up in the pipeline? What do you want to do with your tax liability in the next couple of months? We have some time to plan."

So, Mike and I have been very busy, as well as our team, and we're going to see some tremendous results. I think we're going to see this is our best tax planning year yet.

We love the podcast, but we really love boots on the ground, saving clients money, meeting with people. So, if you are listening, and your CPA didn't even reach out to you with this planning season since October, then reach out to us. We are more than happy to help you.

This is what we love to do. This podcast is going to be a tremendous resource going forward. Tax law is changing. Guarantee it. And we're going to be on the front of it.

Mike Pine: Yes, it is changing indeed. And just to add on to that, you don't have to call us if you didn't work with your CPA last fall. If he wasn't reaching out to you, find someone else. Please find someone else. Tax. Anyone who's making over $200,000 a year in this country, almost every single one of their biggest expenses is income tax. You shouldn't be wasting that.

Yes. You have to pay taxes. You're legally obligated to pay, but how many times Kevin and I have seen a new prospective client come in who thought they were paying the minimum tax they were obligated to pay, and they were overpaying. To use our new president's term, "hugely" overpaying their taxes for no reason, except that they weren't working with a proactive tax strategist.

So, please find somebody, if it's not us. There are tax strategists out there. There's a big difference between tax strategists and tax preparers. You need both. So, please consider that.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, one of the biggest differentiators there is a tax strategist like Mike and I and our team, we're looking forward. Like Mike said, this is December. What's coming up in January in tax law? A tax preparer is probably not thinking about that. They're worried [00:03:00] about what happened the last six months. “What do I get to get across? What do I got to file?” They're playing 'catch-up'.

So, Mike, let's get into that a little bit because January is going to be a big change for our country with Trump taking office, the Republicans taking the house, Senate, everything. So, tax law is going to change. What do you foresee coming up in the pipeline?

Mike Pine: A lot of stuff. A lot of very good stuff. Let's start off with the last major piece of tax legislation we've seen out of Congress in the last however long. The last one we saw was that bill that passed the house on January 30th of 2024 that was going to fix three important things in the tax code that are broken right now.

And remember, I think, we had a recording about it, but we were super excited. It was the most bipartisanship supported bill out of the United States House of Representatives that I had seen in half a decade. 83%. That's Republicans and Democrats. 83% of the House rep members voted for it on January 30th, and it created some great fixes, and we were super excited about it, had every reason to believe that was going to sail through the Senate, and Biden even promised he was going to sign it if it hit his desk.

It did not hit his desk. The three major things that were in there- it was bringing back bonus depreciation to 100%, and doing it retroactively. We have seen over and over again, since the first time we had bonus depreciation after the 9 / 11 attacks, when you allow businesses to deduct major capital expenditures and reduce their taxable income by it, guess what?

They invest in the economy, and we've had bonus depreciation around for 20, 24 years now. It's been around and we know it works. Both parties know it works. That's why it got such bipartisan support. Unfortunately, it died in the Senate, and we'll get to that in a second.

But the other two things that were in there, a huge one, huge importance here- the United States is the only first world country that does not allow businesses to deduct research and development expenses. We always had in the past, but we stopped being allowed to two years ago because of an expiring tax law.

You would think a functional Congress would have fixed that. We are at a major disadvantage. The United States is at a major disadvantage with the inability to deduct research and development expenses. They were fixing that in the bill that passed last year.

It died in the Senate. That's going to have to be fixed. And then the third one was expanded child tax credit. There are people out there that are doing the best they can, trying to raise kids, and they need help, and our country should help them.

Now, why did that die in the Senate last year? One guy, mainly one guy. His name is Mike Crapo out of Idaho, a senator, a Republican senator, and this is what he said [00:06:00] when he killed it, and said, "We're not going to put this forward out of committee." He said, "The Republicans are going to win in November, and we will be able to write this better."

He loved the bonus depreciation in the new law. He loved being able to deduct research and development. He loved expanding the child tax credit. But the way that law was written, there was going to be a lot of fraud. A lot of people getting that tax credit that shouldn't have and wouldn't have.

I was okay with it because the government's never perfectly efficient. We were getting more good stuff than bad stuff out of it. He wasn't. He decided to fight that battle and stand his stand on his hill, and he stopped it. I think that was a terrible choice.

By the time you're listening to this podcast, new Congress starts on January 4th, new Congress should have already, Lord willing, have dealt with this and gotten a law ready to put on Donald Trump's desk on January 20th. Not sure if that'll happen that soon, but it should.

We need bonus depreciation, 100%, to come back, and to come back retroactively. We need to be able to deduct research and development expenses, and we need expanded child tax credits, but get rid of some of the loopholes that we know are going to create and allow for fraud. Those are three big ones, Kevin.

There's a whole lot more of it, but why don't we talk about those for a little bit? What are your thoughts?

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, I think, with this DOGE coming through, with this 'Department Of Government Efficiency', here's just an idea, and I think this would be really cool. Just from a CPA's perspective, they have this rule for Roth IRAs, right? Like they have income limits to where if you make under a certain set amount, you cannot contribute to a Roth.

Well, it's all smoke and mirrors because anybody can contribute to a Roth. You've just got to do 'backdoor'. So, you contribute to a traditional IRA, and then, you convert it to a Roth, and you just do it simultaneously. It's just paperwork.

So, what I envisioned DOGE doing and saying, "Why are we doing this? It's just semantics. Anyone can contribute to an IRA. It's just more 1099s. It's more paperwork on the tax return. It's more paperwork for the custodian, everybody involved. It's just inefficiency. Why not just release the income cap and let everyone just contribute to Roths? I mean, everyone could do it anyway. There's just now five steps to do it. Let's just get rid of that."

So, this is the kind of stuff that I'm hoping that they could take a look at in our tax law. AMT. AMT is such a weird thing in our world. To pull back, kind of, how the government works, the treasury, and how we levy tax, you have two, basically, tax systems running simultaneously.

You have normal income tax. Then, you have what's called Alternative Minimum Tax. Alternative Minimum Tax, you're just adding back some deductions they don't allow for normal tax, and they don't let you get away with over funding, property taxes or certain other preferences that could be deductions on your normal tax they don't allow on AMT, and you pay the higher of the two.

What's the point [00:09:00] of this? Why don't we just blend the two together, so we don't have this AMT thing hanging out there, and that always creeps up on people? We could just make this efficient, and make it just have one tax road that we can all go down, and then, just, kind of, blend the deductions to where we need them to be, and we're not doing an alternative calculation versus normal calculation.

So, that's, kind of, what I'm excited for, is to see how our job as CPAs get more efficient. If we could get rid of some of this dead weight, and get some of these efficiencies up in our government, I think it would be a tremendous help on the preparation side, on the compliance side, all around.

I'm hoping they get into that, which I think they should have a CPA in DOGE. I don't know if they do. They need one, though.

Mike Pine: I imagine they will, but let me talk on that for one second, Kevin. So, like you said, the AMT is just, it's nonsensical. It's difficult. We haven't seen a lot of it since the Tax Cut and Jobs Act of 2017, because they reduced the amount of state and local taxes you could pay, which used to be the major preference that caused most people to go into AMT.

But that's coming back, and I do think there's a possibility they're going to increase the SALT (State and Local Taxes) deduction. I wish they wouldn't. I mean, the fact is all by allowing state and local income tax to be deducted in their fullest, all that's really happening is you are bailing out the states that have a fiscal problem, and they don't know how to control their fiscal issues. It's not fair.

That being said, there's a lot of Republicans in high tax states, and they would very much like to get their constituencies a greater SALT deduction, so that might come back, and if that does, we're going to see AMT come back, hugely. Again, I'm using that word. I guess that's my new word. My word for 2025, 'hugely'.

So, Kevin and I, we just worked hard with the people in our firm to come up with a new billing structure, flat-rate pricing. So, if you have a specific kind of tax return, you're going to know how much you're going to pay from the get-go. It's flat-fee, all inclusive.

But we had to throw in there because AMT is such a burdensome administrative process, we had to put a huge surcharge that says, "Yes, your tax return is going to cost X, but if you happen to be subject to AMT, we're going to have to, almost, it was like a 40%, 40% or 50% increase in their fees," because that's how much time it takes to go through the nonsense of filing for AMT. It's completely inefficient.

If DOGE actually does what it's supposed to, and I have high hopes here, just imagine, instead of our clients paying us to do a lot of nonsensical AMT administrative work, they could actually pay us to help them grow their businesses, and grow the economy.

Wouldn't that be amazing?

Kevin Schneider: Or, think about how inefficient audits are and the amount of immaterial, [00:12:00] argumentative things that happen in a course of an IRS audit. There's got to be better materiality levels. The government has got to say, "I am not going to fight them over this $100 deduction." We're wasting so much government resources and time.

We've got to think with our brains and not just through procedural manuals. And if we can make compliance simpler to enact our plans, I mean, that's just going to save our clients money. It's going to save us time.

So, I'm looking forward to it. As far as tax laws changing, I am very hopeful in bonus depreciation. I think that's going to be a huge shift. Um, I think that back in 2017, that was Trump's go with the Tax Cuts Job Act was to allow qualified improvement property to be eligible for bonus.

It still is eligible. It's just all sunsetting in two years. So, we want to make sure that we get a re-up in bonus depreciation, and I think you're going to see a huge uptick in real estate. I mean, just think of how real estate was in 2017, 2018, 2019. It wasn't a buyer's market. It was a seller's market.

Everyone wanted something. Everybody wanted property. Tax law was very favorable, 100% bonus depreciation. So, that means you could write off 20%, 25% of that rental property off in one year.

Now, whether it's deductible or not, we've gotten into that in our podcast, but you can write off a quarter of a rental property with 100% depreciation, about, and interest rates, we had an economy where interest rates were pretty low. I mean, you were looking at investment properties somewhere at 4% to 6%.

Now, where we are today is, our interest rates are still, kind of, high. They're going down, but tax law is not favorable. So, we don't have the favorable tax law because the bonus depreciation is sunsetting.

So, if we could get our bonus depreciation back up to 100%, get our interest rates in control, I think you're going to see a shift, and everyone's going to be like, "I want real estate again. I want real estate." How is that not good for our economy? How is that not good for just this country as a whole is if real estate's going, people need housing, people want to invest in the properties.

We're not going to just surtax capital gains at 40%. That was a terrible idea. Keep our cap gain rates low, incentivize investing, it then makes the investments we're investing in even more incentivized with tax law. I mean, that's where I want it to go.

Mike Pine: I have friends, good friends, smart friends, that say there's no need for bonus depreciation. 100% bonus depreciation, that's just a handout to the rich. It's true in some cases. It is the wealthier people that invest in real estate.

There was this brilliant guy in history. His name was Adam Smith, and he had a theory called the 'invisible hand' theory. And almost you, I mean, almost unanimously economists say, "Yes, the invisible hand works." So, let's talk about that.

So, affordable housing is an issue in America; a big issue in America. The government can't fix it unless the government takes [00:15:00] everything from all of us, and goes and somehow becomes efficient and builds affordable housing that doesn't suck. Maybe that could happen, but it doesn't work. Look in the socialist countries where they try to fix it. It's not fixed, or they're living in rat holes. So, the 'invisible hand' theory works with this.

When you have tax incentives for people who have capital to invest that capital in new housing developments, that housing creates a bigger supply in housing, which reduces pricing in housing, and it fixes or improves the affordable housing crisis.

If you think the government can do it, fine. Don't lower taxes. If you are aware of what happens and what has happened for the last hundred years in our country, it is industry. It is the positive sides of capitalism that improves the lives of all of us. We need that 'invisible hand'. We need people to be incentivized to improve affordable housing.

And you know where else we need it coming? In energy independence.

Kevin Schneider: Uh-huh.

Mike Pine: This 'Bidenflation' we've experienced the last four years, there's a lot of debates on what exactly caused it, but no one debates that the higher cost of energy, the higher cost of gasoline and electricity, has gotten passed on to customers. Costs more to transport your goods. It costs more to get stuff built. It costs, it raises prices. It has caused inflation. Guess what? If we make energy cheaper. It will improve our economy, it will reduce inflation, it will make things more affordable.

And how do you do that? Well, the government can do it greatly by offering incentives to produce more electricity. They've done a little bit, actually, Biden did a lot of that on alternative energy, on solar, on wind. The problem is the sun doesn't always shine, and the wind doesn't always blow.

And in California, they have a surplus right now. There was this great article a few months ago. California has this huge surplus of renewable energy, that they actually have to turn off the wind farms or the solar panels, because they have nowhere to store it. They have more being created on sunny, windy days than they can use, so they actually turn it off, which stinks for the people of California, because they're paying two or three times the amount for their electricity than we are, and their power companies are actually turning off their solar panels and their wind mills because they don't have a way to get that energy.

Natural gas works, people. It's so much cleaner than coal. It's so much cleaner than burning a gasoline engine. Natural gas is on-demand energy. We should incentivize more natural gas, not stop refining it, not stop export facilities. Europe needs our natural gas, so they're not dependent on Russia. We can give that to them.

So, the government needs to, and I expect to see some more incentives in the tax code for energy independence for exploring, developing petroleum, [00:18:00] hydrocarbons, and still alternative energies.

We need better ways to store that electricity so California does not shut off their solar panels, so they can store it and share it with the rest of the country. We need incentives to improve our distribution network of electricity because if California is producing too much, I promise you, there's people across the country that would be happy to buy it, if you could get it to them.

Those are the things our government should do. And Lord willing, the Department of Government Efficiency will actually come through on some of these things.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, and we haven't even gotten into tariffs.

Mike Pine: Ha!

Kevin Schneider: I mean, Trump was very clear about that, and he was so strong in it. I just don't see him going back. So, he's really going to incentivize, and I've even heard that he's going to try to lower the tax rate for domestic US businesses, but if you import any sort of your materials or anything from other countries, you're not going to be eligible for this tax rate.

I don't know how it's going to work, but it could be like a 15% tax rate for all domestic work and all domestic manufacturing, that would incentivize everyone to move operations on shore into the United States. And if you go outside, they're going to tax 20%, 25% on top. So, you could be back, there's your back to your 40%.

So, I don't know how they're going to structure it. That's why this is so key to keep looking at this stuff, to keep your finger on the pulse of this because it's going to change, and it's going to change quick. I think the longer the Republicans and Trump take to get stuff moved, it's going to just get hung up and not go. I think come mid-January, and they're just going to hit the ground and go. I think that they're already planning. They're not going to just get in office, then develop a plan.

I think they know what they're going to do, and they're going to hit it, and fast and hard, and this is why we got to stay on top. This is why the strategist, the tax strategist is so key because this tax law is going to change in the midst of our busiest season as a tax professional and compliance mode.

And tax season, it's going to be March and April and the IRS is going to try to put out procedures on what everything is changing. So, we need to be looking at tax law proactively in February, March, and April of this year. We cannot have our heads in the dirt just focused on preparation, getting these returns done.

We have to be proactive because you've got to stay on top of it, because something that happens in February, March, could change your trajectory of how you run your business, how you transition into more domestic operations, or whatever it is, for the next 8, 9 months.

So, we are going to be hammering our team with that knowledge of just saying, "Yes, we got to do tax returns, but look, look ahead of us. Keep your eyes up. Keep your chin up. Look at what's happening." And that is going to be so valuable this next year, because I think this is going to be the biggest tax law change we probably had.

Mike Pine: Since '86?

Kevin Schneider: Since I've been alive. Now, the Tax Cut Job Act was pretty big. I mean, it made some changes, but I think this is going to drastically overhaul some things.

Mike Pine: Oh yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah, the last time we had a major rewrite of the tax code was in 1986, and all the tax code that all tax law is currently relying on, is the tax code, or the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. Hopefully, for the next 20 years of our career, Kevin, or 30 years; yeah, that was Reagan; hopefully, over the next 20 or 30 years of our career, we're going to be referring to the Internal Revenue Code of 2025 or 2026.

That would be cool, and make it a lot more simplistic. Yeah. So, logistically though, there's going to be tax laws changing this Spring, and maybe even as late as this Summer. Some of them might be retroactive to the 2024 tax year, but 2024 taxes start being due in March and April of 2025. So, what do we tell clients?

If you, right now, let's say bonus depreciation has not been restored yet to 100%, and you're ready to file your tax return on March 1st, should you do it? If we still believe there's a really good chance, they're going to retroactively bring back bonus depreciation to 100%.

What do you think, Kevin?

Kevin Schneider: I think it's a case by case basis because it's, kind of, looking at materiality. There's two ways to go about this one. We can hold on to a tax return and wait to see what tax law does. I would veer away from that.

Let's say you bought a $10 Million apartment complex, or a commercial property, and we're expecting tax savings of $500,000, or whatever it is, we're expecting a large refund because we are going to be strategizing this piece of commercial property.

I would venture to guess, I would rather get your $500,000 in your pocket as soon as possible. If I can file that thing in April, and get your money to you in May, at least, you have your $500,000 that you can invest and grow, and then, if tax law changes in June, July, or August, or whenever it does, you have a bulk of your cash.

And then, we can always amend the tax return for, and it should be a fairly simple amendment to get the return back into current tax law that's been changed. So, that's one way to do it.

The other way to do it is, maybe this bonus depreciation's not saving you all that much, maybe it's saving you $5,000, $10,000, and it's not worth the headache of filing, getting your money, amending, and all this stuff. Maybe, in that instance, we can advise, "Yeah, let's just sit on this and see what's going." You're not at any risk to sitting on it, as long as there's not penalties and interest accruing.

I mean, I don't see any problem for sitting on a return, either. So, it really, for me, it just depends on the situation and the amount.

Mike Pine: Yeah. It should be a conversation everyone has with their tax strategist, or their tax preparer at this time of the year before they file. Make sure you understand what's going on, what might impact you, and how to reconcile it when something does change.

So, I mean, when you amend a tax return, technically, anytime you amend a tax return, especially if it [00:24:00] increases your refund, you're increasing your odds of getting audited.

Is it worth it? It might be for you. You're going to pay your tax preparer more money to file another return. An amended return is another additional step in work that they have to do for you. So, it's going to be different for everyone. Like Kevin said, it's a case by case analysis that you need to do.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah. And if to, kind of, bring it circle from whenever we were saying if you didn't hear from your tax advisor in October, November, December, the odds of them having a conversation with you, weighing these options with you, being proactive with you on these options, are probably slim to none, as well.

So, you can, kind of, see the history of the service you've been getting, and seeing, "Okay, wow! There's all these options available. Which one's best for me?" If a preparer is in ‘preparer’ mode, more than likely, he's just going to file under current law and just get it off his or her desk.

And so, just be mindful, and that's the point of the podcast too, is just we want to educate you, and you might have a great relationship with your CPA, but we're just trying to bring, there may be more there. You may have outgrown him or her, or maybe, you can share the podcast with your CPA, and say, "What do you think about these things?"

Whatever works, but there are always options when it comes to tax. It's not always black and white, especially in a huge year that's going to be, in 2025.

Mike Pine: Hey, I agree completely, but on that note, let's talk a little bit about tax planning and tax strategy in the new year. So, like we started off the podcast, Kevin and I have been, our entire team at Revo tax has been, been in tax planning mode, big time. That's the busiest Fall I've ever had, to be honest with you, Kevin. It's been fun.

It's not always the tax preparer, tax planner's fault, guys and gals. We met with a lot of clients. We met with them two, three months ago. We were able to present them tons of different options and strategies. They could choose, pick and choose which ones to implement, if any. We had more than a few seven-digit income-earners come out in the last two or three weeks of December, and late November, that finally said, "Okay, I know, I've, I've ignored all your emails, but I'm ready. Let's tax plan!"

And we just did one of those this week, December 15th or so, the guy's looking at a million dollar tax, and there was only one option remaining for them, and that, that's not good tax strategy. You should pick and choose different strategies that align with what your goals are, what your financial planning looks like.

So, for anyone that is getting, or being introduced to the concept of doing tax strategy and tax planning, do not wait till November or December of 2025. This year, I'd actually not want to start in January or February. Most years I would say start in January. This year, with all the new tax law coming, let's wait until [00:27:00] most of that comes through. Wait until, at least, April, but not past May.

If you haven't started tax planning by May or June of 2025, you're missing out on opportunities. To get the best benefits from the tax strategies and incentives out there, you got to be proactive. You got to change your facts to change your tax, and it's hard as heck to do that if you only have one month left in the year. It's a lot easier to do that if you have eight months left in the year.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah. That's very true. Very true, And, at least, as long as we know what tax law is doing, we don't have to have a hard-set plan in place in March. That's impossible, because we only work with information of what's available today.

So, if you come to your CPA in March, and say, "I'm going to make a million dollars this year."

We're, "Okay, cool. Here's a plan that if you have this million dollars come through, this is what I would do."

And then, maybe October comes, your bonus doesn't go through, or life happens, right? So, this plan we may put in place, the crystal ball does not work for us. So, proactive communication, ongoing communication about your tax plan.

Like, if you get a tax plan with us, like it is, it's revised. I revised one tax plan about 10 times. I mean, "No, I don't want to do that. I want to do this. Oh. Oh, this changes." We have a file, a tax file, and we just keep it updated with your scenario.

Just keep in contact with us. Keep it live. Keep it fresh. If tax law changes, we pivot that tax plan, and circle back with you. It's not rocket science, but it also, it takes intentionality, and it takes effort. You can't be lazy in this, in this industry, and you can't be lazy either in your own situation, which we see a lot, too.

I see some people who just, like, "I just want to pay the tax. It's just, this is too much." It actually happens. I have had conversations. Mike has too. We have a very good, dear client of ours who makes significant money every year, and we encourage them to, "Hey, let's, let's get on this." And then, we don't hear from him for a year or two.

And then, it just pains you a little bit, but they're also busy running their business, and so, we understand life is busy and stuff happens, but we get stuck in our bubbles too.

Mike Pine: One client told me, "If I spend all the time you're asking me to spend on this, I will have no income, so we won't have a tax problem." Like, yeah, again, you don't want the tax tail to wag your business dog, but please, consider dedicating some time, some effort, some of your resources towards tax planning.

Let 2025 be your best tax year yet. Please make that, make that a possibility.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah. It's possible. It is definitely possible. And I think this year, it's going to be fun. We'll come out with a new podcast once we get some, enter some sort of idea of what's coming our way.

We'll get out a podcast, try to get it out there as quick as possible, just information-dump of, [00:30:00] here's, kind of, what's laid out. It's not in the law. It has to go through its certain procedures. It has to go through the process, but, at least, when it's presented to us, we can, kind of, diagnose it.

Who knows how long this bill could be? And we can, kind of, just walk through it and have a good time.

Mike Pine: Yeah, I guess it depends how good or bad the tax law is.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, but it might be a celebration, it might be a mix. Usually, when tax law changes, it's going to be a mix. So, our excitement, and my excitement in this, it's, I'm excited for the change in efficiencies, but there's always a double-edged sword, because the Republicans or Democrats, whoever's in office, can't just come in and swipe a pen and be like, "Tax breaks for everybody!"

The government still needs revenue. The government still needs money, and that's a reasonable request, I think. We love our military. I love having the benefits we do, living in this great country, and that does take resources. It does take money.

So, that does come from taxes, some from tariffs. We'll see what happens, but there's always going to be a push-pull with this stuff.

So, there's always going to be some sort of 'bite' to the benefit. So, we'll try to educate and let you see those traps, too, but with those bites come loopholes, and that's what Mike and I love too.

Mike Pine: Uh-huh. Oh, they're not loopholes, Kevin. They are incentives,

Kevin Schneider: Incentives! Sorry.

Mike Pine: Either intentionally, or unintentionally, woven into our internal tax code or internal revenue code. Hidden Money will be around to help you save your money and not overpay the government.

Kevin Schneider: Yes, and we will be back. Our next episode will be even beefier, hopefully with some actual ideas of what's going to take place when Trump takes office, and this machine gets moving.

So, stay tuned. We'll keep our ear to the ground for you, and we'll do all the leg lifting, and we'll do the education. And then, we'll talk to you here, in about a month.

Mike Pine: See you guys later.